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Talk:Concealment
This page has been locked with a misleading and incorrect description. There are not, strictly speaking, low/medium/high BAB characters but low/medium/high BAB classes. A character can be a mixture of classes which can be anywhere from 1 to 30 BAB depending on classes taken and numbers of levels. Your BAB determines how many base attacks you get a round, from 1 to 6 (you can get extra attacks from effects like Haste or Monk's Flurry). But the point is that it doesn't really matter. The simple fact is that every single attack, however many of them there are, has exactly the same chance of missing if you're concealed, and that miss chance (%) is the amount (%) you are concealed. And it's just not true that this miss chance will round down. If you have 5 attacks against me and I have 50% concealment then it means you have 5 attacks with a 50% chance of hitting. You may hit with all 5. You may miss with all 5. On average you will hit 2.5 times. It's not true at all that you will hit exactly 2 times in every case. This desperately needs correcting before too many people believe what's written here.--Thorsson 00:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC) None of what you said was correct. If you have 5 attacks and you have concealment of 50%, you would miss 2 to 3 attacks. It says it right there in miss chance calculation notes. It does not say you would miss 2.5 attacks because 2.5 does not exist in a dice roll. If I hit my target on all of my rolls then it's not a 50% chance because the likelihood of all hit land for 100% hit or fail is 1 out of number. You know how many various you would get if you try to find the probabilities when a hit will land, in what order, and all at the same time? Again, this is simple math. -- ARHicks00 Sure the chance of all 5 hitting, or all 5 missing, is 1 in 2^5, but it can still happen (it's just like tossing a coin 5 times). Anyone who understands basic probability will understand the difference between what I wrote (which is correct) and what you posted, which is a muddled description by someone who clearly doesn't have a full grasp of the matter. I have a Math Degree. I don't think that you do. Are you going to carry on showing your ignorance or admit that you don't know what you're talking about?--Thorsson 01:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC) On the page, it says, "number attacks MAY miss" meaning this may not be the case in every account. It also why I included concealment doesn't happen in any order and the effect is random. You seem to not understand stastistics at all despite the math degree. I have a B.A. in Elemetary Teaching and going for my masters so I have to know Math. The attacks are not about the likelihood of bypassing concealment to land every hit, which doesn't have anything to do with concealment miss chance. It's about the likelihood you're going to miss, which is why it is call miss chance calculation. The fact you and Syylk are arguing about the likelihood of landing all attacks is pretty darn silly when you are talking about miss chances. Now say what you will, but I have to go. I was looking for a place I could quietly reside and I'm finding that impossible here you guys follow me here to the wiki, disrespecting everyone around you and killing the quiet atmosphere. I'll only come back to check on my builds from time to time. -- ARHicks00 From Syylk: This is what I was trying to tell ARHicks earlier. He doesn't understand Math. Check the history. He insists on posting all this irrelevant and confusing BAB nonsense that is not correct. And as for existing quietly ... to my mind a quiet existence would not include butchering public wiki entries with untruths and misguided opinions. It's already been established on the Bioware boards that your opinion is diffferent to everyone else's. That's because you're wrong on nearly every issue. That's why are you should not be editing these pages. That's making trouble and is likely to cause a stir. It's not a quiet existence here. The math is correct, you two aren't really good at math. Speaking of the forums, you guys said the Dexterity Bard wasn't as good as the Strength Bard. It wasn't until Hfnei did the math that it turned out you guys were wrong. This one of the many topic you guys were wrong on, but did any of you listen? Nope, you guys invade topics and trolled. Bioware forums is just like Digital Webbing was back in day and now it's the new World of Warcraft. It would explain why members from other messageboards would tell to me steer clear of the official forums. I remember one poster asked for a simple build with only one or two classes, you guys threw a bunch of munchkin builds. I talked to the guy afterwards and he noted in PM that he ignored all of your posts. He wasn't the first person and wasn't the last. So far, if you look at the past history, the only two people stirring up trouble have been you two, which is pretty visible to moderators. Since the past couple of days, you've guys have contributed very little to the atmosphere, making minor corrections. I can look back at the history of this article or any other article and most them contain insults. From what I'm reading, you two seems to bent on putting your name on everything and making inaccuracy in every post. Hell, you've two have gone out of your way to reword my posts to make it sound like you guys did it, especially you Syylk. Anyway, I'm through because you guys will keep scorching the NWN2 wikipedia with little disregard to others. I know when I'm gone you two will leave because you guys have nothing else better to do, but fascinate over me. At least the real contributors of this board (psst, you two aren't one of them...pass it on) can go back to what they do best. -- ARHicks00 "I have a B.A. in Elemetary Teaching" (sic)--Thorsson 05:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC) Overcoming concealment Please add methods for overcoming concealment, specifically fey's 50% concealment. Blind Sight (Spell) ? Blind Fight ? See Invisibility (Spell & Racial) ? Thanks, 86.162.110.249 20:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)Val. ARHicks00 There is no true methods in overcoming concealment except through magic, Blindght, and other feats that ignore concealment like Perfect shot. Concealment Clarifaction I feel that the concealment description can use some clarification so here goes: Concealment provides defense against melee attacks, ranged attacks, melee touch attacks, ranged touch attacks. It also provides defense against some active combat feats such as Knockdown and Whirlwind Attack, however it does not defend against Feint, Disarm, Seeker Arrow or One Shot. Concealment is applied as a chance to miss based on the level of concealment. Whenever an attack is made that can miss due to concealment, a percentile roll, a d100, is made against the concealment value, C. If d100<=C the attack misses due to concealment. If an attack does not miss due to concealment it will still miss if it is less than the target’s armor class or a natural 1. The most common level of concealment, and the PnP maximum, is 50%, however spells like Ghostly Visage and Ethereal Visage provide lower values of concealment. The toolset allows for 100% concealment, so in theory one may also find higher levels of concealment in community modules. The only method of counteracting concealment is the Blind Fight feat. There are spells such as True Seeing and Blindsight that would counteract concealment in PnP but that functionality was not implemented in NWN2.Mithdradates 06:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC) Re:Concealment Clarification 1. Concealment only applies to attacks regardless if they are a feat or touch attack so talking about Knockdown has nothing to do with miss chance. 2. Concealment is based on percentage as there is no 'level'. The math doesn't matter because 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, and 50% are just that, which they give a certain percentage to ignore the attack. The was done to calculate how many attacks you would miss per round, not the likelihood you would miss an attack since that is self-explained. 3. AC has nothing to do with concealment. Let me say this again, AC has nothing to do with concealment. I made mention of this in the blind fight article before it got editted. 4. Perfect shoot ignores concealment as does seeker arrow. Magic (such as magic missile) ignores AC and concealment. -- ARHicks00 Re: Re: Concealment I'll address your points in order: 1) The point is concealment applies to some combat feats and not others. For the sake of completeness, the feats which do apply and which don't apply should be mentioned. 2) The effect of concealment can be illustrated on the basis of a single attack. If you want to consider the effect on a round of attacks, it would be best to consider a specific example: e.g. The probability of n out of N attacks missing due to concealment is given by the binomial bistribution: p(n)=N!/n!/(N-n)!*©^n*(1-C)^(N-n) If one has 6 attacks per round, the probabilities of attacks missing against concealment would be: 0 attacks missing, 1.5625% chance 1 attack missing, 9.375% chance 2 attacks missing, 23.4375% chance 3 attacks missing, 31.25% chance 4 attacks missing, 23.4375% chance 5 attacks missing, 9.375% chance All attacks missing, 1.5625% chance 3)So we're both in agreement. 4) What is perfect shoot? I mentioned Seeker Arrow as a feat that was not afffected by concealment. Magic missile is not a melee/ranged touch attack spell or melee/ranged attack, hence it would not be affected by concealment. This is why I was specific about the kinds of attacks that concealment does defend against. Mithdradates 06:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC) The "Concealment countermeasures" section was incomplete. On the occasion, I improved the layout of the section. GFallen 01:22, June 1, 2012 (UTC)